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KATHLEEN KENNEDY, GUEST HOST: Hi there everybody, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Kathleen Kennedy, in today for Arthel Neville; she is on assignment for "AMERICAN MORNING."
Let me ask you this: Would you sing a ballad to Taliban-American John Walker Lindh? Do you even want to hear the song?
A country-rock song called -- has written a song called "John Walker's Blues," and it's being bashed in Nashville, where it's been recorded by singer and songwriter Steve Earle. It's a sympathetic look at Lindh's Islamic journey from California to Afghanistan and back.
Not-so-sympathetic talk show host Steve Gill here from WTN in Nashville thinks consumers should boycott the record. He's here to tell us why.
And also with us is Grant Alden, co-publisher of the alternative country music magazine called "No Depression."
Guys, thanks for being on the show today.
STEVE GILL, WTN TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you.
GRANT ALDEN, PUBLISHER, "NO DEPRESSION": Glad to be here.
KENNEDY: OK, let me start with this: Does this song glorify John Walker Lindh and the Taliban cause? .
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
STEVE EARLE, SINGER/SONGWRITER (singing): We came to fight the Jihad and our hearts were pure and strong. As death filled the air we offered up our prayers and prepared for our martyrdom. But Allah had some other plan, some secret not revealed. Now they're dragging me back with my head in a sack to the land of the infidel.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
KENNEDY: All right, you've heard the words. Steve, what do you think? GILL: I think it's outrageous, and particularly when we're still within one year of the September 11 attacks on America. This is a sympathetic, glorifying approach to John "Taliban" Walker. The guy is a traitor to his country and I think, frankly, Steve Earle was trying to push the edge of the envelope, but it's time for the American people to push back.
KENNEDY: Grant?
ALDEN: I think that's making a lot out of not very much. It doesn't glorify him. The song is a blues, not a ballad. And what it argues is that John Walker is a slightly more complicated character than we know at this point.
I don't think that's a radical statement, but apparently it is now.
(CROSSTALK)
GILL: During World War II, you could have argued that Hitler was a more complicated man than people approached, and I don't think an American would have written a paeon to Hitler during World War II, or that less than a year after Pearl Harbor, we would have seen people writing songs giving us the perspective of the Japanese Zero pilots' attack on Pearl Harbor.
We're within a one-year period of the attack on America, and I think it's too early for a song like this. And I think Steve was just trying to look to be outrageous to attract attention.
ALDEN: I don't think Steve...
KENNEDY: Grant, you've got to admit, though, that it draws some comparison between John Walker Lindh and Jesus. And this has got to be particularly offensive to Christians.
ALDEN: That's one of the really silly things that's come up in this discussion. He's not drawing the comparison.
If my very limited understanding of Islam is correct, the Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was a prophet and a martyr. And link being made in that song is that, like Christ, if John Walker Lindh dies in his jihad, he will rise to Heaven as a martyr.
That's all it says. It's not equivilating (sic) him with Christ.
KENNEDY: So it's just telling a story Steve, isn't it? What's wrong with that?
GILL: Well look, again, you could have been telling a story about Hitler during World War II, the Japanese pilots. Maybe we'll get a story from Steve Earle next about the killer of little Samantha in California, giving us his perspective. And maybe that will be a great video; I don't think it will be great music, and I don't think people will buy the record.
KENNEDY: See, some people say, though, that's the problem with music today: that there is no freedom of expression allowed.
GILL: Well, I think he's got plenty of freedom of expression. He is free to put this song out there, and the American people are free to say no thank you when it comes to buying it.
KENNEDY: All right, let's hear from our audience.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Martina (ph). Go ahead.
MARTINA: Well, the irony of it is that if he -- Steve Earle wrote that song and produced it in a Muslim country that practiced Islamic law and referred to that country as the land of the infidel, he would have his tongue cut out or his hand chopped off. You know, he can come and write it here, and we just kind of say, oh well.
ALDEN: Isn't that one of the things that makes us, actually, a good place to live -- that we invite different opinions as part of our public discourse? Isn't that kind of the whole idea?
KENNEDY: Yes, but, you know, that's one of the things Steve Earle says, that there's a new patriotism out there. That there's this sort of mentality that you're either with us, or you're not.
And this is one of the things he had to say about this song. He says: "I'm trying to make clear that wherever he got to, he didn't arrive there in a vacuum. I don't condone what he did. Still, he's 20 years old; he didn't just sit on the couch and watch the box, get depressed and complain. He was a smart kid. He graduated from high school early. The culture here didn't impress him, so he went out looking for something to believe in."
GILL: It certainly sounds like the guy that's being glorified by Steve Earle was certainly a guy that Steve Earle found sympathy with.
My sympathy is on the other side, or with Mike Spann, who was killed by the allies of John Walker. And if John Walker had told the U.S. troops that had him in custody that some of his fellow Taliban- ites had weapons and were planning an uprising in that prison revolt, then perhaps Mike Spann wouldn't be dead and his family wouldn't have fatherless children and a widow trying to make do in Alabama.
ALDEN: All of which is utterly irrelevant to the discussion as to whether Steve Earle should have recorded this song or not.
GILL: Maybe Steve could have done a song from the perspective of Mike Spann and shown sympathy for him, instead of this traitor to America.
KENNEDY: All right, Brandy (ph) would like to weigh in on this.
BRANDY: I agree, certainly, that things could be written -- songs could be written from Japanese, Hitler and the FBI agent's family's point of view.
But Mr. Gill, why are you bringing up things that -- some things that happened over 50 years ago? This is now. We need to focus on what is happening now. Certainly it is irreverent and completely just wrong.
KENNEDY: Well, you've mentioned, Steve, that it's all about the timing. Is there ever going to be a time where something like this is OK?
GILL: Well you know, it may be in a period, you know, a year or two or three years from now, maybe this song would not evoke, I think, some of the emotions that it is.
But keep in mind that this song is going to, apparently, be released in September. And I will say this, at least apparently Steve Earle has had the good taste not to release it on September 11. They're going to wait until September 24.
And the comparisons to Hitler and World War II are the comparison that we are in war, and we are still at risk...
(CROSSTALK)
GILL: ... and to be doing these songs as a tribute to people who are our enemies -- a guy who is a traitor to his country, I just think is absolutely the wrong song at the wrong time.
KENNEDY: Grant, let me ask you this: Have you heard the whole album?
ALDEN: Yes.
KENNEDY: It's called "Jerusalem." Apparently the whole thing is pretty controversial. It addresses several political issues, doesn't it?
ALDEN: Yes, it does. Now, I confess that in light of this particular fracas, I haven't had time to listen to most of the other songs because I've been trying to correctly understand what this song in question is about.
KENNEDY: All right, Virginia (ph) from New York is in our audience.
VIRGINIA: I am personally offended by the song, but I feel that he has a right to write it and have it published, and we have a right not to listen to it.
This is America, and in our zeal to combat terrorism, I think we should not lose sight of the fact that we have constitutional values that we hold dear.
(APPLAUSE)
KENNEDY: Grant, what more can you tell us about Steve Earle and his past as a music writer?
ALDEN: Steve has been on the outside of various parts of Nashville since he got here in the early '80s. He's best known for a song, "Copperhead Road," which is a fairly pointed anti-government statement. He's known to be, particularly since he got out of prison -- not really prison, but jail -- he had a brief spate when he was in jail for drugs. He went to rehab, he came out clean.
He's made a series of very good, very interesting records, some of which are profoundly political, some of which touch on the death penalty.
And this new record is a broader approach to contemporary American politics.
KENNEDY: OK, hold it right there. We're going to continue this discussion in just a minute.
Listen to more of Steve Earle's lyrics as we head in to the break.
(APPLAUSE)
(MUSIC)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KENNEDY: All right. Welcome back everybody to TALKBACK LIVE.
We're talking about a controversial country rock song about John Walker Lindh. And we asked whether this was sort of unpatriotic. And before the break, we were talking about Steve Earle, the person who wrote this song. And he has been known to have said about this album that this is the most pro-America album he has written yet. What do you think, Grant?
ALDEN: I think he is right. I think, unfortunately, we have come to a point where we assume that pro-America and patriotism mean doing whatever our government tells us. And this -- we have a much richer political tradition than that.
KENNEDY: All right. We have somebody in the audience who has something very similar to say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. This is Michaela (ph). Go ahead.
MICHAELA: Hi. I totally agree with that talk about the patriotism. I think because we are fighting for these rights to have these rights, just because someone chooses to exercise those rights and we do not agree with it completely doesn't mean those rights still don't pertain to that person. And I completely agree with what you are saying.
(APPLAUSE)
GILL: But it still does not mean that we ought to have to purchase the record. I mean, I think nobody is saying that he does not have the right to do this song. I think the question is whether or not the American people should purchase this, should put their dollars behind this effort. And I think we've got a free speech effort to say, no thank you, while he has got a free speech effort to produce this album.
KENNEDY: Steve, do you think the stations are going to play this song?
GILL: I do not think they are going to play it much more than as a novelty to, you know, play into maybe the controversy over it. And I think a lot of that is what Steve is all about. He likes to, again, do things that are potentially outrageous just to attract attention.
ALDEN: This is all a strawman argument. This is all silly. Stations have not played Steve Earle except for "Copperhead Road" in 10 years in any great quantity.
KENNEDY: Chris, who have you got over there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Mary (ph)...
ALDEN: People are going to buy his records anyway. His audience is.
KENNEDY: All right. Chris?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Mary (ph) from Michigan. Mary?
MARY: I agree also that we let them play it, let him record it. It is my money. I have the right to spend it any way I want. It offends me, I won't purchase it. He'll get the point that we don't agree with his way of recording and what he had to say.
(APPLAUSE)
GILL: You know, it's interesting. One of the arguments of those who are supportive of Steve Earle constantly claim that the reason he is such a great artist is because he hasn't sold out for popularity, that his records don't sell, people don't buy them, and that shows what a great songwriter and singer he is.
You know, frankly, I do not think he is going to get a big hit out of this record. He has not had a big hit in decades. And this is, again, a last gasp in a career that's going nowhere fast.
(CROSSTALK)
ALDEN: That is ridiculous.
GILL: I think there's a large part of that.
ALDEN: He has his own record label. He tours to a significant audience. He sells a significant number of records. He makes a good living. He gets to do what it is he is meant to do and what it is he wants to do. I do not know how you define a career, but I want that for me.
KENNEDY: OK, guys, we got John (ph) on the phone from Canada. You got a question or comment? JOHN: Yes, I got a quick comment. I think it is important to be able to openly discuss why any soldier, Taliban or otherwise, would feel that they had a just cause to give their life to a war. And we look at the Taliban, of course, from their perspective, they felt being that there was no evidence offered and bin Laden said he was innocent, under a rule of indivisible justice where all people are innocent until proven otherwise, they have a fair claim to make, and it's that we can't openly discuss that. We do a disservice to all Americans who believe in freedom. In fact, all human beings that believe in a justice system, we do a disservice by not openly and honestly discussing the facts that stand before ourselves irrespective of anybody's opinion.
I mean, the facts stand as they do. Mr. Bush, when asked for evidence, he said we don't need any evidence. We know he is guilty. Well, the keyword there is "we." As indivisible, we don't need to sacrifice our souls to what can only be described as a false deity. He is an equal man as we all are and women. And for him to blame somebody for a crime without any evidence when all of the evidence that's available points in other directions with a plan he had in place prior to 9/11, two days, to blame bin Laden without providing any evidence established before the terrorist act occurred, I mean, we got a lot to discuss openly and honestly with ourselves as equals committed to democracy.
KENNEDY: OK.
GILL: Well, I don't think anybody rational is claiming today that Osama bin Laden was not responsible for 9/11. And if you want to look through the facts, Taliban John has admitted to his guilt and has entered a plea of guilty to the charges against him. So, I mean, if you want to look to the facts, the guy is guilty by his own admission.
KENNEDY: All right...
GILL: But do we not wish to understand our enemies? Do we not wish to understand what motivates them so that we can do a better job of attacking them, if that is what our will is to do?
KENNEDY: OK, guys. Let's get to an e-mail real quick.
"It's just a song. It's not going to sway anyone's opinion or change the fact that John Walker is a traitor. What a waste of time to talk about it and give it unwarranted publicity." Jack in Virginia.
(APPLAUSE)
All right. We have Gwen (ph) from -- also from Virginia in our audience today.
GWEN: Yes, good afternoon.
KENNEDY: Hi.
GWEN: And exactly what the e-mail said, that was my statement that prior to today, most of us did not know who Steve Earle was. And now, since TALKBACK is having it as a topic, it sort of gave him some publicity around the album and some folks who maybe were not even interested in buying it may buy it just to hear the song. So I think that the media has had a part in putting his record out there and giving it some publicity.
KENNEDY: Right. And, Grant, Grant, Steve has...
GILL: I think that was his goal, that was his ambition in doing this. And if we really want to understand...
ALDEN: No,. Actually, this is all driven by one reporter in New York that wanted to get some ink.
GILL: If his goal was really to understand our enemies, why hasn't he written a song detailing the inside thoughts of the 19 terrorists who hit the buildings in New York and Washington and crashed in that field in Pennsylvania. Steve knew better than to touch that one. He should have known better than to...
ALDEN: Because he has a son who's the same age as John Walker Lindh and he thought he understood that character and he could write an effective song about it. I don't think any of us can pretend to understand the people who crashed those planes.
KENNEDY: And in all fairness, this is a guy who is not a mainstream artist, is he?
ALDEN: No.
KENNEDY: He does not profess to be.
ALDEN: No.
KENNEDY: And he is often relished controversy, hasn't he? I mean, he claimed at one point to be a Marxist?
ALDEN: He has claimed to be an awful lot of things. He is a self-taught guy with a lot of ideas banging around in his head and many of them are quite good.
KENNEDY: Are we going to see an anti-Earle movement here with stations across the country?
ALDEN: Only if they feel it will drive up their ratings. They weren't going to play the record in the first place. They haven't played his last records. The idea that making this record is somehow going to damage his career is preposterous.
KENNEDY: All right, guys, that is all of the time we have. Steve Gill and Grant Alden, thank you both for being on the show today.
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